Welcome to this special recap of Your Pharmacy Career podcast, proudly produced by Raven’s Recruitment - Australia’s experts in pharmacy career and locum services for over 30 years.
For our first episode of Season 12, host Krysti-Lee Patterson chats with Deb Hawthorne, Consultant Pharmacist of the Year, rural health leader and Chair of PSA’s Consultant Pharmacist Community of Special Interest.
Episode Summary
It’s early in the year, the dispensary is humming again after the holiday lull, and someone asks the familiar question: “So… what do you want to do next in pharmacy?” For many pharmacists, that question can feel both exciting and exhausting — because the profession offers so much, yet the path forward isn’t always obvious.
In this Season 12 opener of Your Pharmacy Career Podcast, host Krysti-Lee Patterson sits down with Deb Hawthorne — a credentialed pharmacist, diabetes educator, asthma educator, medicines safety advocate, rural health leader, and founder of her own diabetes education business. Deb’s story is less a straight line and more a series of brave pivots, “yes” moments, and community-led opportunities that ultimately shaped a portfolio career in rural Victoria.
Deb begins with a candid reflection on how she landed in pharmacy in the first place: she was choosing between pharmacy and physiotherapy, drawn to science, health, and — importantly — people. That people-first instinct stays central throughout the episode. She describes an early vision many community pharmacists will recognise: a small-town pharmacy with regular customers, chats over the counter, and the kind of care built on relationships.
But life had other plans. Frequent relocations for her husband’s career meant Deb worked across multiple pharmacies and roles, rarely settling into one workplace for more than a couple of years. Over time, that constant movement became both a challenge and an unexpected catalyst. Deb gained breadth quickly, moved up into management, and was even offered partnership — but knew it didn’t fit her family’s reality at the time.
One of the most relatable moments in the episode is Deb’s admission that she once reached a point of thinking: maybe pharmacy isn’t for me. Instead of staying stuck, she took a leap — retraining as a librarian and working in the University of Melbourne’s science and engineering department. It was, by her description, the kind of job people “never leave”. Yet the pull of rural community life — and a return to north-east Victoria with young twins — shifted the direction again.
Her re-entry into pharmacy came through a simple request from a friend: could she help with some Home Medicines Reviews (HMRs)? Deb was already credentialed, but had never fully stepped into the space. From that one “yes,” her career expanded into HMRs, GP clinic work, diabetes education, hospital work, and broader rural health leadership — all built on noticing gaps and responding to need.
A major thread of the conversation focuses on the realities of consultant pharmacy in Australia today: the professional fulfilment, the impact on patient outcomes, and the practical barriers that can make the work hard to sustain — particularly in rural areas where travel is significant and clinicians can be stretched thin.
Deb also discusses the advocacy work happening alongside the Pharmaceutical Society of Australia (PSA), pushing for changes to remuneration, caps, and flexibility in the medication review programs. She describes the frustration of being paid the same rate as years ago despite rising costs, and the ethical tension of wanting to see urgent patients when the system restricts how many can be seen each month.
The episode closes with Deb’s broader message about rural practice: far from limiting opportunity, rural communities often amplify it. Support is tangible, relationships are closer, and healthcare professionals can shape services directly. Her advice to listeners is consistent with the theme of her career: say yes, back yourself, and don’t be afraid of the adventure.
Key Takeaways from the Episode
A “portfolio career” can be built one yes at a time. Deb’s pathway wasn’t planned — it emerged through responding to opportunities, community needs, and personal circumstances.
Rural practice can strengthen clinical identity. Deb describes rural pharmacy as an environment where pharmacists can “flex clinical muscles” more consistently than in some metro settings.
Upskilling follows engagement. Deb reflects that when she felt disconnected, she stopped learning — but when she found meaningful work, studying and credentialing became almost inevitable.
Consultant pharmacy delivers deep patient impact — but the model has constraints. Deb explains that current program rules, caps, and follow-up payments can make the work difficult to sustain, especially with travel time and overheads.
Caps can unintentionally restrict access and workforce growth. Deb argues that limiting how many reviews can be done monthly discourages pharmacists from making the role a viable primary career — and reduces patient access.
Follow-ups are often undervalued. The episode highlights the mismatch between the time required for follow-up reviews and the level of remuneration, particularly after travel and administration.
Systems shape referral habits. Deb notes that some GPs may not routinely refer to medication review services simply because they haven’t had access or awareness during key training years.
Professional communities can change practice at scale. Deb’s creation of the “Consultant Pharmacists of Australia” Facebook group during COVID became an enduring community of practice with thousands of members.
Rural communities often support innovation. Deb shares examples of local workforce grants, community encouragement, and even local media support for new health services.
Advocacy isn’t only for “big names.” Deb encourages pharmacists to speak to local MPs and decision-makers — politicians can’t act on issues they don’t understand or hear about.
The best career advice is often simple: back yourself. Deb’s closing message reinforces confidence, experimentation, and resilience — if something doesn’t work, it becomes experience, not failure.
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Pharmaceutical Society of Australia (PSA)
Proudly brought to you by the Pharmaceutical Society of Australia. The PSA is committed to empowering pharmacists through advocacy, innovation, and industry-leading professional development. To become a member or learn more about how the PSA can support your career, visit www.psa.org.au.
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Full Episode Transcript
speaker-0 (00:00.302)
Welcome to Your Pharmacy Career Podcast, proudly produced by Raven's Recruitment, the experts in pharmacy career and locum services for over 30 years. Every episode is your gateway to new opportunities in the pharmacy profession. From expert advice to inspiring success stories, we're here to spark ideas, guide your career and help you achieve your goals. Stay tuned. The next step in your pharmacy journey starts here.
speaker-2 (00:27.022)
Hi everyone and welcome back to your pharmacy career podcast I am your host Krysti-Lee Patterson and I'm so excited to be kicking off season 12 Can you believe it? So this is our very first episode for 2026 and I truly cannot think of a better way to start the year Joining me today is Deb Hawthorne. Deb is a credentialed pharmacist a diabetes educator asthma educator medicine safety advocate
rural health leader and the list goes on. And she's also the founder of her own diabetes business as well. She was also named a Consultant Pharmacist of the Year, Early Career Pharmacist of the Year and has built an extraordinary portfolio career based in rural Victoria. So Dev, that was a long list of things that you've been doing. Welcome to the podcast.
speaker-1 (01:19.138)
Thank you so much for having me. And look, while it sounds like I'm very busy, I am, but you know, when you live in a rural community, you just like to fill up your time and help as many people as you can. So it's just one thing leads to another. And then you get a really, really long introduction on the podcast.
speaker-2 (01:34.464)
Yes. I love it. Well Deb, I always start in the same place and ask all our guests, why did you decide to become a pharmacist?
speaker-1 (01:44.558)
Probably, I was tossing up actually between pharmacy and physio. I knew I liked science, I knew I liked health and I ended up getting into both actually in the end. And so I had to really make that decision. Sometimes when you get your uni offers, it gets decided for you. But now I got into both and then sort of spoke to a few local pharmacists, local physios. And pretty much after talking to those guys landed on pharmacy because I just really enjoy talking to people over cups of tea. And that's exactly what I do today.
speaker-1 (02:23.148)
No, honestly, I think I hadn't had much to do with pharmacy except for maybe going to pick up my grandparents prescriptions every now and then. And it was a very old school pharmacy that we used to go to, you know, where they had the counter raised and he used to hide behind the window like you could see him, but it looked very like cool, whatever he was doing. And so I always had this idea that I would own a small little community pharmacy somewhere and have my regulars and have my chats and have my, you know, donut Saturdays or whatever.
theme we were doing and yeah, so it changed clearly. And that's partly due to our lifestyle. We ended up moving a lot from my husband's career and just really finding what I was passionate about and what I was good at.
speaker-2 (02:57.858)
Yes.
speaker-2 (03:09.258)
Lae in your career or is it something that you've just fell into?
speaker-1 (03:26.67)
I don't know, I had a strange journey, I think getting there. So I did the traditional community pharmacy internship in the pharmacy that I did my student hours in. Loved it around the corner from home. used to walk to work. It was a beautiful family and I'm still in contact with that pharmacy and the owners there today. And then I sort of worked for a few different groups and because of my husband's career, we moved it around a lot. So I sort of was working for a different pharmacy maybe every year to two. I generally
didn't have a stable job for more than two years just because of our lifestyle and being pharmacy was very easy to get work, which was wonderful. And I sort of went up in the ranks, you know, I was managing quite a large pharmacy there at one stage. I was even offered partnership, which was incredible opportunity, but I just knew we couldn't really fit it into our life at that particular point in time.
And then my husband's career again. I blame him for a lot of things. He's a man, but no, I didn't really like to move. And now I love it. Now I love cleaning up, going on to the next adventure. It's funny how experiences change you, but we ended up moving to the country because my husband went back.
to study medicine and he was part of the rural medical school with University of Melbourne and we got placed up in Northeast Victoria. And that was sort of my first really experience with rural pharmacy and I loved it. And I got to flex my clinical muscles and I like, I don't think I sold a perfume at all. know, like it was a completely different experience to working in Metro pharmacies where you really are a jack of all trades. And during that time, I sort of got a bit more involved with the aged care facility and my
owner's wife at the time was a credentialed pharmacist. And I sort of saw what she was doing and I was like, Oh, that looks cool. So you can get into it in more detail. And so I ended up credentialing, didn't end up working there as a credentialed pharmacist because we moved again. And this time we moved, think we moved to Geelong and I was kind of actually getting a bit lost at that stage. And I was like, Oh,
speaker-1 (05:24.888)
I feel like nothing's really sticking and I know it was definitely my fault because we were moving so much, but also I was kind of excited for the next thing. Like I didn't really want to put down my roots and I think owning a community pharmacy definitely forces you to do that from what I've seen. Obviously I haven't done it. And then I sort of thought, all right, well maybe, maybe pharmacy isn't for me. Now looking back, that was actually quite, quite a big jump. Like going from, I hadn't found the right thing for me, therefore.
All of pharmacy is not for me. And that was probably a bit naive in retrospect, but you you only know what you know. And so I actually left pharmacy and I trained up to be a librarian. And my idea was at that stage was to work in a hospital as a librarian. was like, Oh, I can still use my pharmacy knowledge. know, nothing's wasted. And it was great. And I actually ended up being offered a job.
at the University of Melbourne again, but in the science and engineering department. So they actually made a job for me. I don't think there was a job there, but I thought it was so cool. A librarian pharmacist. I don't think they come about very often or I've never met another one. No, no. And I worked there and loved it. Honestly, it was a phenomenal job. There's a reason why I think your typical picture of a librarian is like an older woman with pearls and a cardigan. It's because they're the best jobs. Like you go into it and you never leave. So something to be said for that.
that picture, but it wasn't meant to be for me. We ended up moving back to Northeast Victoria, back to where my husband did his training to sort of keep on going with his career because we really did love the community. And while there is a Northeast Healthway in Grotto, there is a hospital there that only sort of had one hospital librarian. And by that stage, I had two very young twins. So we moved up when the twins were 10 months old. And so I guess having a regular job wasn't really...
right for me at that particular time. And then I actually had one of the girls that I went to university that I studied pharmacy with back at La Trobe in Bendigo. She was I think the year below me and she reached out to me. said, Hey Deb, are you credentialed? I could really use some help with some home medicine reviews. And I was like, yeah, I guess I never really like a dabbled. I'd never really went into it. And we're talking what 2018 here.
speaker-2 (07:33.154)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then...
speaker-1 (07:35.02)
Yeah, one thing led to another. And now I, you know, it's my bread and butter and just from from that friend reaching out and sort of showing me the possibilities and there was such a need in my area. along the way that led to other opportunities like GP, pharmacy, diabetes, education, hospital, pharmacy, all these things from just saying yes to that one medication review to help a friend out.
speaker-2 (07:58.07)
No, I love that. And I feel like that's sometimes where the best things kind of come from. Like just someone reaching out or saying, Hey, can you do this? I think about my own career and kind of saying yes to things and thinking, I've got no idea about this or I'm not sure, but just give it a go anyway.
speaker-1 (08:09.258)
Yeah.
speaker-1 (08:18.828)
I think it was Lisa Nissen and I can't remember if it was you and you interviewed her and she said, say yes, work out the rest later. And while I didn't realise at the time, that's pretty much how I live my life. Yes.
speaker-2 (08:30.638)
It's funny you mentioned that you moved around a lot with your husband because I moved around a lot. My dad was in the mine so I completely relate to never staying anywhere really any longer than two years. And then my nan was a librarian so yes, were you? Good stuff. So I learned something today. I didn't even know there was such a thing called a hospital.
speaker-1 (08:48.302)
All the good stuff.
speaker-1 (08:54.446)
Yeah, they're phenomenal. And now I work in a hospital, mainly doing diabetes education. Yeah, I get to interact with the librarian and I send her emails and I'm not sure if everybody does it the way I do, but I love having someone there in my corner. It's great.
speaker-2 (09:09.526)
Yeah, no, I love that. That's really, really interesting. One thing that I've noticed about you is you've done a lot of education on yourself. So as things kind of popped up, you've gone into, because a lot of these things like the credential pharmacist, GP, diabetes educator, you have to go and upskill in some of these things. So yeah, I guess from your perspective, is that something that you, like, you one of those kind of
people that are just always studying something.
speaker-1 (09:39.874)
I am now, but you know, looking back to that time period when I left pharmacy, I wasn't. And so that's a really interesting reflection, I think on me or all of us in general that often when we're not as engaged, we're not sort of putting that pressure on ourselves to upskill. But I think when you are as engaged as I am, you can't help it. So for example, when I was working in the GP clinic,
And that was the first time I'd ever worked in a JP clinic and I'd never met anyone who would work in a JP clinic. I had no idea what I was doing. And they're like, look, we think we should focus on like opioids. I was like, cool. All right. So let's get comfortable with opioids. So then I did a pain wise course with Joyce Mix 1. Of course. So you've got to upskill because I'm like, all right, I feel like I'm not an expert in this area. I need to upskill to be able to be the best version of myself. And now I love pain management and you know, so many of my clients come to me, you know,
because of that need and it crosses over into so many different spaces like the diabetes, the hospital, anywhere really. And then while I was working in the GP clinic, I sort of noticed there was either heaps of people either living with diabetes or were just at super high risk of diabetes and you could just see it happening in their life in five years. And the services didn't really seem to be there in my community. So of course, what do I do? I can become a credential diabetes educator. I make really
heart first decisions as opposed to head first decisions. So they're not always perhaps the most financially sound, but I just see a need and I just, I want to protect that person or look after them. And I feel like if I can provide them the most that I physically can, well, hopefully they'll get the best out of the service, whatever, whatever that service is.
speaker-2 (11:21.844)
Yeah, I think that's a really great way to live life is to live with the heart. I think it's something that I try to do, but I probably am probably more that logical thinker though. But I do make rash decisions.
speaker-1 (11:34.414)
We need logical thinkers in our life because sometimes I'm so hectic like I have been known to go to the wrong person's house, do a medication review and think why are all these meds different? And think my god I'm in someone else's house I've just provided a free medication review for this gentleman who's just let me in off the street.
speaker-2 (11:53.134)
I love how he just welcomes you into his home.
speaker-1 (11:56.93)
So good. So you just say you're a pharmacist and they let you in. I don't know what to think about that or if I've just got a really friendly face. I'm not sure. But yeah, anyway, so logic is a good thing and being organized is a good thing. I can't say I have those skills down pat every day. Some days, yes. Some days, no.
speaker-2 (12:15.102)
Is that so? I think you've also done some business courses as well. Is that correct?
speaker-1 (12:21.026)
Yeah, yeah. So I did a master's of, well, I was in a master's. Sorry, I didn't complete because I think at that stage I decided not to own a pharmacy, but I did that business management degree with the idea of owning a pharmacy because again, you know, we get taught so much about medicines at uni and so little about owning a business and like, here you go, own a business, go for it.
speaker-2 (12:44.012)
Yes. See what happens!
speaker-1 (12:45.742)
Yeah, exactly. And at that stage, think I did it through, was it Open Universities or one of those type of courses, but it wasn't really health related. And so I did struggle and you I was 22, I was a baby. I did struggle to relate like globalization back to owning a pharmacy. And of course, everything is interconnected and I see that with hindsight, but yes. So I guess even from early days, I really have perhaps unintentionally placed a big focus on upskilling. Yes.
speaker-2 (13:14.122)
You just didn't realize it at the time. And do think that though having some of that, I guess, that business understanding from that course early on has actually helped you in what you do with your consulting or your consulting business?
speaker-1 (13:31.43)
Yes and no. I don't think that being a consultant pharmacist or being a credentialed diabetes educator for most currently, probably not the most financially sound decisions. They are excellent careers. are fulfilling, soul fulfilling careers and you do so much good for your community. But do I earn as much as my community pharmacy colleagues? The answer is probably no.
But you know, these skills and look, we're working on that to change that with our current advocacy campaign along with PSA, the Pharmaceutical Society of Australia. And I will continue to campaign and not just for myself, but to encourage other people to go into similar careers because money isn't everything. yes, so I guess long winded way again of answering a question. Yes, it's helped me, but whether or not I've listened to the advice I get from all my courses, that's enough.
Yes, that's it.
speaker-2 (14:26.168)
But I think that's a good thing that you just raise there with the advocacy with the PSA. I guess maybe for some people that aren't credentialed or don't really understand yet how HMRs or home medicine reviews are actually remunerated, maybe you could just give us a really quick kind of run through the current state and like what your dream state would be.
speaker-1 (14:49.766)
Yeah, sure. So I think it either last year or the year before time just flies. When you're in the advocacy space, everything moves so quick and so slow all at once. But home medication reviews and other sort of similar pharmacy services were taken out of the community pharmacy agreement. So they're not currently under the eight CPA and they've gone into an agreement of their own, which we're calling one PPA or pharmacy programs agreement, I think. Don't quote me. But
that program, that one PPBA, which looks after HMRs, RMMRs, ACOP, know, Webster PAC, Indigenous Webster PACs, all those sort of rural allowances, all that kind of stuff, that's still currently being negotiated. so PSA are the main negotiator with the Department of Health. So the lead team, the lead PSA team, which I think at this point in time is Debbie Rigby, Shane Jackson, and Brooke Shelley, as well as Bridgette Todderman, the CEO, and a few other key people, but they're
or working with the Department of Health to change the status quo because unfortunately home medication reviews are being paid the exact same amount.
as I was being paid in 2019. So while my farm costs a whole lot more than it did in 2019, I'm still getting paid exactly the same. And one of the other really great barriers to the program and great as in big, not great as a good is unfortunately I'm capped at seeing patients a month. And so that's per calendar month. So for example, in January, I took some time off school holidays, hang with the twins. I only got to do 10 reviews.
This month in February, I've oversubscribed and accidentally went over my cap to see a gentleman who was in desperate need of a pharmacist visit, but I can't go over 30 for February, which is when we're recording this. And so there's no sort of flexibility. And so the advocacy at the moment is while the government is very happy and they've said on numerous occasions that they will continue to fund the home medication review program and other similar programs, it's not really sustainable in its current form.
speaker-1 (16:49.0)
So we're advocating for three main things. So that's the caps, whether or not, you know, there's different schools of thought. Some people think we should abolish the caps. Some people think we should increase it. So for example, I could, I could easily do 60 to 80 med reviews a month. with my... If that was my main career, that would be very easy. At the moment I do these reviews only about two days a month, sometimes less, sometimes more, depending on if I'm gallivanting off to a conference or whatever I'm doing or a school holidays.
speaker-2 (17:05.148)
You're dedicating
speaker-1 (17:18.894)
So that's really only eight days a month that I'm working and easily completing 30 considering that I travel a lot. know, some weeks I'm traveling thousands of kilometers. We've got to, got to remember that as well. So that's all very easy to do in 10 days. So definitely the cap should be changed. The other thing is indexation, obviously, you know, getting paid the same as you were back in 2019 is not a good thing, particularly with medications. And we know so much more information has happened since then.
Were GLP ones even out back in 2019? Can't remember. It would have been very fresh if they were maybe in America. yeah, not just increasing it to a more livable or a more serviceable amount, but also making sure the indexation is built in for the future. And then the third part is flexibility and that's, you know, flexibility of when and how I see people. So I struggle.
to do follow-ups. Currently with the home medication review program, there is funding for the initial one, which we get $222, I think currently. Then if you do a follow-up, it has to be at least a month later, no more than nine months, there's all these time rules. I know it's very strict. You get $90. And then if you do a second follow-up, you get $50. Now, if I'm traveling an hour to get to someone's home in an hour.
to back to my home or to get to the next review. And I probably, even if it's follow up, I'll probably still spend about half an hour with them and I still have to do right up. $50 is not a livable really. It's, it's underpaying us. think it's probably the minimum wage when it counts into, you know, taking out.
speaker-2 (18:52.399)
got to take into consideration your travel costs and all of that as well. Yeah, well I didn't realize that.
speaker-1 (18:59.084)
And of course we're all individual contractors too, so we all have to pay ourselves super and tax and all those kinds of things. So even though $220 sounds like a lot, I probably spend on average three to four hours on a review and I'm talking travel and all the rest of it. So I'm probably only getting paid maybe on a good day, $45 an hour after super and tax and all those kinds of things. But follow-ups I'd probably be on less than $20. I think that I deserve more than $20 an hour.
speaker-2 (19:26.776)
think so too, Deb.
speaker-1 (19:28.686)
But yes, there's lots of work being done and look, it's, you know, this has all been kind of really gearing up since August. There's actually been a lot of media just this past week. And so we've had ABC, radio news, it's Canberra Times, there's been all these different publications that have been speaking to medication review pharmacists all over Australia. There was a great article with Brad Butt. I'm not sure if you've had him on your show yet, but if not, should. That's a good idea.
speaker-2 (19:55.022)
And I saw that the article that you might have even shared it I can't remember.
speaker-1 (19:58.198)
Yeah, yes.
speaker-1 (20:02.688)
I love to, although I love to do all this stuff, I love to highlight all these great people out there doing all this incredible work and together we really are stronger. So this particular article for those of you who haven't had a chance to read it. So Brad and one of his clients, his medication review clients were interviewed and this particular man I think had been recently discharged from hospital and was on 32 medicines and he was definitely rattling. And Brad really changed his day and his quality of life and helped really.
get things down and just, I don't know the exact ins and outs of what he did, but he definitely helped cut down that ultra polypharmacy to a much more reasonable and required amount.
speaker-2 (20:39.63)
Yeah, well, that's some, I think that transition of care is really a big opportunity.
speaker-1 (20:44.977)
Yes. It is. you know, you talk about transition of care. So sometimes I do get like these SOS HMRs and it's really, really hard to get to them when I'm only seeing 30 a month. And I've seen my 30, you know, we're on the 27th of February today. I finished seeing my 32 days ago and
I'm already, think I've already got 20 booked in for February and I've still got some in my inbox that I just haven't had time to call. So I'm really at capacity for, I'm sorry, for March, sorry, 20 booked in for March. So I'm probably already at capacity in terms of what I've got in my inbox. So if I get any requests from doctors to see someone urgently next month, I will either have to push someone out or do it without pay. And you know, look, not all medication reviews are urgent. A lot of it is chronic disease. The majority is, but you know,
As an example, this man that I had to fit in, it was on Wednesday this week, I got a message from his GP saying that this particular man had stopped being able to swallow medications. And so he really, really wanted me there ASAP to sort of figure out what can he crash? What can't he crash? What, you know, what changes do we need to make? Like he was on Philodapine, XR, which obviously is an extended release. can't.
crush that, what's the alternative, do we need to change to amlodipine, all those sorts of things. luckily I had a cancellation, so I did get paid to go visit him, but I was prepared to go out and see him without payment, which, you know, while that sounds very lovely of me and I'm lucky I can afford to do that, a lot of people can't afford to do that. It shouldn't be up to me to prioritize patients. I should just be able to see whoever wants to see me.
speaker-2 (22:18.922)
Yeah, exactly.
speaker-0 (22:20.366)
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speaker-2 (22:37.974)
And do you think that, like, I don't know how many credentialed pharmacists are out there, but do you think that maybe by lifting these caps and increasing the remuneration that it will also be more attractive for more people to actually take up as well so that we can help more people?
speaker-1 (22:55.438)
100 % these caps have actually created what I'm sure unintentional barriers. So it's mean that people can't have this as a full time job. So they've gone and got other full time jobs, you know, it's hard having a part time gig when a full time job is being offered, isn't it? Yeah. And sure, they might dabble, they might do a couple HMRs a month because they love it and they miss it. But you know, that's not enough for their communities. Really, I'm sure more than two people a month need to see them.
speaker-2 (23:20.971)
Yes.
speaker-1 (23:22.146)
Then of course you've also got the GPs. Now GPs are really aware that I'm super stretched. I've trained up two pharmacists in the last six months and they're already full. Like I am trying here. I'm trying to work within the remit of the rules, but it is so tough, especially when you live in the country and we just don't have legs on the ground. But what it means is that the GPs are aware that we're under the crunch and they're only sending me like their most hectic patients. My work is really difficult sometimes. And those people that perhaps could get benefit.
But you know, they're only on four medicines. So let's go and refer the man with 32 rather than the woman with four. So that means people are missing out on services. Then, you know, I've actually got, I reckon there's this whole cohort of GPs that sort of maybe trained between the 2013 to 2019 mark that really never had the chance to refer to medication reviews. So it's not become part of their normal practice. So that's, know, there's, there's probably hundreds, if not thousands of GPs that never refer because
They don't know about the program. They don't know who's around to provide the program. So it's just, I think that's what happens is you put these barriers in place and they become much bigger than they were ever intended to, unfortunately for the detriment of the patient.
speaker-2 (24:34.062)
Yeah, absolutely. I was just thinking, I definitely think that these types of services are very important in rural areas, but it would be so hard to even just try and book appointments and just to, you probably have cancellations and things like that. And it's not like a hairdressers where it's like, oh, I'll just take a $50 deposit. So if you cancel, I still get paid, right?
speaker-1 (25:00.91)
Yeah, and you're actually negative because you spent all the time liaising with the person like, we're all our own secretaries. Nobody's got a HMR secretary unless if you've got one and they're cheap, let me know. But yeah, there's, and that's, know, it is bad for business, but also means that you're putting off seeing particular people and making them wait, you know, unintended wait times. But also I service a really, really large community for Victoria.
Don't compare me to your Queensland pharmacist. They're doing way more kilometers than me, but for Victoria, it's pretty wide. It's probably, I don't know, maybe if it's, what is it? The radius? The diameter. That's it. I've forgotten on my mouse. The diameter is probably, if I'm doing a circle and my farm is in the middle where I live, it's probably a diameter of maybe five to 600 kilometers. And so I'm going up, I'm going down, I'm going left, I'm going right and everywhere in between. So because of
the restrictions with, there is a very small payment for if you do travel more than 200 kilometres in one day and it's visiting people living in the rural code that they use the MMM-3 to MMM-7.
I don't think there's any sevens in Victoria. think that's it's said. Victoria, Northern Cho Chui. But anyway, if you visit people in those areas and it's 200 kilometers or more, you get $125 flat fee. If I travel 201 kilometers, I get $125. If I travel 450 kilometers, I get $125. If I travel 195 kilometers, I get zero. So a lot of my towns are in that 190 kilometer round trip sort of mark.
And so because of that, means that I, you know, that's in terms of travel time, that's probably a good two to three hours, depending on how tough the country is and if it's off road or all the rest of it. And, you know, if it's flooding or bushfires or, know, whatever the normal stuff.
speaker-2 (26:57.859)
Just a typical day in rural Australia.
speaker-1 (26:59.956)
I come to the country, it's fun, I promise. It is, beautiful and I wouldn't live anywhere else these days. But you know, so that means I really have to, this is a business decision, not a heart decision.
speaker-2 (27:03.694)
actually is so fun, I it.
speaker-1 (27:13.218)
There's this one particular town that I go to called Myrtleford. It's beautiful. It's a great Italian community. get sent home with jams and biscuits and cup of teas galore and they're just gorgeous. A lot of sort of the ex, the community there was sort of part of the Snowy Hydro or they used to have tobacco farms back in the day and then moved to wineries. Anyway, it's great, great fun town to visit. I'll sprit Myrtleford as a, as a tourist destination as well as a medication review destination. But I went there two days ago and one gentleman was not home.
He's 85, his phone doesn't work or he can't work his phone either way. And so while I did try to call him to remind him that I was coming, he wasn't home. I actually went and knocked on his door twice. I saw some other clients in that town in the day, so it wasn't wasted, which is great. But I'm probably now I have to wait to have.
about three or four clients to go back to that town to make that drive worthwhile. And so I'm probably not going to be able to get there for three to four weeks. And you know, it probably took me a good three weeks from his original referral to go out and see him. So he's waiting six to seven weeks to see me. And you know, he's got some pretty just from the referral that the GP sent to me, he's got some pretty high risk medicines, he's probably at super high risk of falls. I went to his house, I saw the steps, you know.
Who knows what will happen. anyway, I hope I get a chance to see him before he does go to hospital or something like that. But it's always a worry. I wish I didn't have to deter myself from going to visit towns like that from a business sense. I wish I could just go out based on need. Yeah.
speaker-2 (28:43.502)
And unfortunately, we live in that world where, like, guest money isn't everything, but we all need to live. We all live in this world, right? we have to pay mortgages, pay school fees.
speaker-1 (28:52.685)
Exactly.
speaker-1 (28:56.984)
Exactly, exactly. And gosh, now they want to do netball. So we've got a netball uniform. It just adds, doesn't it? Yes. Never stops.
speaker-2 (29:04.398)
That's exactly it. as part of your work with the consultant pharmacy, things that you do, you were the consultant pharmacist of the year, I believe, and also the early career pharmacist as well. What did those awards mean to you? Like, did you feel like, like, wow, this is actually reinforcing something that I've done or?
Do you feel that you now have responsibility to all the other consultant pharmacists out there to keep on advocating? Yeah, what does that mean?
speaker-1 (29:39.662)
That's an interesting question. I, of course, have imposter syndrome and thought I wasn't deserving and all the rest of it, like most women of my age, unfortunately, are and I should try and get over it more. I don't know that I feel a responsibility for others, I guess I do in a way, but it's not from those awards. I've always had that, I guess that not weight on my shoulders, that's really too negative, but I've always, always loved looking after people and that's just not.
the patients I see that's my pharmacy or my family community, you know? So while those awards were beautiful and the recognition, what you're doing is worthwhile and other people see that what you're doing is, worthwhile. I don't know that I would have been any less hectic or less busy with all my project and you know, trying to better both the consultant pharmacy community and really.
Any sort of pharmacist in any profession, we all just need to look after each other. And those particular awards actually came from very similar reasons. And so that was creating the community of practice, the Facebook group, the Consultant Pharmacists of Australia.
speaker-2 (30:54.126)
I've been meaning to ask you about this. It was as if we planned it,
speaker-1 (30:56.222)
Basically. This is why I'm such a good medication review pharmacist because I can talk about anything medication related and anything consultancy related. So we could go for hours. I won't keep you here for hours though. But yeah, so originally I created that community of practice in 2020.
When things were all going a bit crazy and hey, are we allowed to go visit people's homes? You know, we've got this big C word hanging over us. What's the deal? Like while PSA were doing a phenomenal job, especially Peter Guthrie, you know, with, those daily updates. Yes. It seems so crazy now, doesn't it? back, but during that time.
speaker-2 (31:32.43)
my gosh.
speaker-1 (31:38.19)
You know, it was, was pretty crazy times and I was reaching out to a friend and I was just, can I do this? Can I do this? I'm like, this is crazy. There must be somewhere. I can't just keep on bothering my friend all the time. And she probably doesn't know as much. Like we know as much as each other. And I remember asking, I think on the PSA, earlier career pharmacist Facebook group, I remember asking, is there a group for consultant pharmacist to just sort of chat about these things and so we can stay up to date and whatever. And I remember the incredible Debbie Rigby.
replying to that comment saying, no, you should make one. And it was just that comment that was like, you're right. I should, this phenomenal pharmacist, like the consultant pharmacy queen has just reached out to me and said, I should make one. Why not? And so I was, think I was, that's right. So the twins weren't quite three at that stage and they were still having a day's sleep and they used to sleep on either side of me and I'd have my laptop.
speaker-2 (32:13.71)
Thanks
speaker-2 (32:32.504)
See.
speaker-1 (32:32.622)
And so here I am typing, making a Facebook page for consultant pharmacists and they're sleeping away. And I remember putting out a few SOSs and saying, oh, please, you know, don't let me be the only one in this group. Come and join. Anyway, the next day I opened up my computer. There was 300 people in that group overnight. So clearly I wasn't the only one looking for help during those COVID times, but really the group has changed.
over like really due to need, you know, there's a lot of advocacy stuff in there now, but there's a lot of clinical, a lot of business. And so it's been this, I guess it's sort of taken on a life of its own. It's this, it's, you know, for listeners as well, don't have to be a consultant pharmacist. You could just be, you know, really interested in sort of different clinical things or just different perhaps services that you could add to your pharmacy that you might get some inspiration. We've got lots of researchers in there. We've got educators, we've got students, we've got, yeah, the
whole spectrum. So feel free to come along and join. We're now up to, I haven't checked in a while, but I think it's over 4,000 people in the group. So considering, I think there's only about 3000 consultant pharmacists in Australia, that's probably covering most of them and then a few more. And you know, people, it's such a beautiful community, a really respectful, supportive, you know, no question is dumb, you know, all that kind of stuff, which, you know, we all get stressed from time to time, but
And sometimes on social media that can come out, not our best selves, but everyone's really sort of encouraging and helping calm people down and just give them resources or directions of where to go and what to do next. And yeah, some days we could have 20, 30 posts on there about pure clinical stuff. And the next day, someone would be like, oh, how do I start this business? How do I get a GP to give me my first referral? So yeah, the...
The Facebook group is still going strong and still serving a need, which is wonderful. And who knows what it will look like in the next few years, you know, might change into something else. Who knows?
speaker-2 (34:33.738)
Yeah, you don't know. But it's funny you mentioned that you're typing up the Facebook page with your twins sleeping by your side, making the most of it. And you also live on a farm. So I think sometimes people that live rurally or regionally can sometimes maybe, and I'm just making complete assumptions here because I've also thought this when I have lived rurally as well, that, but I live too far away from
I live too far away from Sydney to be able to, I guess, do some different things or be an advocate or, but I've got my kids or I've got to care for a sick mum or like all these other things. But it sounds like you've somehow come up with a way of making it work. Do you have any advice?
speaker-1 (35:23.502)
thought that too, you know, I grew up in the city. I haven't lived there since I was 18. So I've been out of the city for half my life, but I was definitely, you know, I went to Bendigo uni. was very, very nervous about moving to the sticks. Bendigo, it's a massive town, but you know, you don't know what you don't know. And now I live in a, in a community of 50 people where the average age is 65, which is the way I like it. I love it exactly. honestly, living in rural and regional communities.
speaker-2 (35:44.174)
I'd you'd love that, Kai. See you all day.
speaker-1 (35:51.298)
The opportunities are endless. People are reaching out, they're crying out for healthcare professionals and they will assist you, your community, your GPs, your healthcare network, your hospitals, they will assist you in any wacky hair brand idea you have and there is so much support. And of course there's monetary support from...
Health workforce bursaries, so these are a non-pharmacy specific, every state has them. So in Victoria, it's called RWAV, the Rural Workforce Agency Victoria. And I think in New South Wales, their title is annoying. It's like the doctors network, rural network, but it's actually for more than doctors. That's why it annoys me. So, you know, that's what helps pay to get me to conferences to upskill. I've just received a grant actually through RWAV to help set up this new diabetes education business.
I want to myself a remarkable tablet and I'm about to fork out a whole lot of money and buy HBA 1C copus machine, you know? A single clinician working for myself, sole trader, you know, these are, these are big deals, but the support is there and not yet. And it's from the community. So for example, I reached out to the Wangarata Chronicle.
speaker-2 (36:47.51)
Yeah, well.
speaker-1 (37:00.936)
local paper and just said, hey, I'm opening up this diabetes ed business next week. I just thought, you know, we might want to know about it. You know, was a higher rate of diabetes in, in Northeast Victoria than the rest of Australia and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, next minute she's out there taking photos of me, popping me in the paper, you know, free advertising, essentially people are there to support you. And yes, I, I do struggle from time to time being the primary caregiver. My husband does shift work.
It's just the way our family works. So I do the pickups, the drop-offs, the netball, the basketball, the swimming, the piano, you know, the things that they were off sick yesterday. Well, they weren't really sick. I think it was more of a mental health day, but that's okay. Even eight year olds need it. It's okay. So we had a lovely day at home, but you know, because of those responsibilities kind of almost forced me in this medication review, diabetes, ed, GP, pharmacy direction.
Well, I'm working at a hospital now too, but I'm working in a great supportive environment where I can take the time off if I need and can get the holidays off if I need. think working country, the opportunities are there and your community will support you. So I never thought I could work in a hospital pharmacy. I never had until 18 months ago and then I was offered a job, you know? Like it's not, it's like I remember back in the day when everyone was, you when we were doing an internship and hospital was king and that's sort of like what you went for. And it's probably changed now, like this is.
good 20 years ago, anyway 15 years ago. But yeah, I could never have imagined in my wildest dreams, I've been working in an incredible hospital with zero hospital experience. So pretty much the answer is move to the country. You can do anything you want, even within mom hours, nine to three.
speaker-2 (38:36.334)
Love it. No, that's great. We're getting towards the end of the podcast now. We've covered a lot of ground and I feel like we could probably have little subset of conversations and drill down into some other areas. if we're looking for the future and we've talked about the things that the PSA and yourselves are advocating about for HMRs, well, not just HMRs, but all of those other credential kind of workforce issues.
What excites you about the future of consultant pharmacy?
speaker-1 (39:11.182)
Consultant pharmacists have always been part of the multidisciplinary team. But I think if those caps and those barriers and all those things are taken away, more people will be aware of it and will be able to work closer with our district nursing services, with our dietitians, with the allied health, will be able to really, truly fully integrate into these teams without having all these barriers, you know.
We've done so much awareness raising, like I said in the last week and every single person has said, I hadn't heard about this program. It's amazing. I wish I'd heard about it from my, you know, grandma or parents or I'm looking forward to the day where people go into the doctors or however the referral service is working at that time and say, I would like to get myself a medication review. That's the aim. And you know, I feel like we'll be truly integrated into the whole healthcare system then.
speaker-2 (40:06.302)
Yeah I think that would be great and it, you know what, it just sounds so crazy that they can't do that now.
speaker-1 (40:12.142)
Isn't it? I was talking to this beautiful ABC journalist, one of the articles that came out last week. And she's like, every time you talk, I get so angry because I don't understand why it's not out there and everyone can't access it. It's just gorgeous. So everyone's on our team. And it's just, we just need to make a few little tweaks at the federal level, just little ones.
speaker-2 (40:32.884)
think it's that educational awareness piece, right? Like just because if you think about how busy politicians are and the policy change makers and things like that, they've got such little time and they've got to hear everything from everyone.
speaker-1 (40:47.906)
They do. So I know we're coming to the end of the program, but I'm doing a particular program at the moment called Superstars of STEM. And it's this incredible program, which is trying to raise the profile and awareness of women in STEM careers. And there's 60 of us from all over Australia over two years. And it's about trying to get our message across to broader community. And you know, when they're looking for someone, astrophysicists, they're not going to find the first pale mouse tail.
you know, expert that they can see like the picture of STEM is changing and they want to try and actually change it in the media. And one of the, and we went to this incredible event at parliament where it's called Science Meets Parliament. And one of the main messages I got across from that event, it was incredible. Like Governor General was there, all the people who were there. I was very overwhelmed. was an amazing room. But then we had all these speakers from politicians and all the rest of it. But one of the messages I got
from the entire weekend was that they only know what they know. Like researchers and clinicians, think people will come out and ask us about what we're doing. But if they don't know you exist, how can they ask you? So we need to get in their faces and you know, in a professional way to do it. Like I was just, actually just before this, I was visiting my local member of parliament, Dr. Helen Haynes, just to talk about the medication review program and hopefully get it into parliament next week. But they are so receptive.
what we have to say because we're the experts. Yeah, I definitely would encourage anyone, doesn't matter what area of pharmacy or where you are in your career, if you've got something you're really passionate about, tell your local politician they actually are interested. It's incredible.
speaker-2 (42:26.368)
So true, and especially in rural areas, that's also a really great free PR strategy as well for whatever you're doing. Contact your local member, invite them along and like, I've never had one say no to me.
speaker-1 (42:38.19)
Exactly, exactly because we're in their community and we're who they're representing so of course they want to hear what we have to say. We just need to remember that.
speaker-2 (42:45.536)
Yes, that's it. Unless it's a sitting week, but if not, will, but they always, always love coming, especially anything health related. It's such a hot topic. Well, Deb, one final question before we finish. And it is, I might be putting you on the spot, but what's the best piece of advice you have ever received or the best piece of advice that maybe you've heard that you want to part our listeners with?
speaker-1 (43:12.126)
It's probably advice that I've got in various forms over the years. Like I can't sort of pinpoint who gave it to me, but I'm sure from these leadership opportunities, plus, you know, speaking to all the incredible pharmacists, you know, industry, different conferences and things like that. But don't be scared of saying yes and don't sort of second guess yourself. I think it doesn't matter if you're male, female, anything.
We all have an idea or a vision of who we are or what others see us to be, but it's so often mismatched. So I just think what's the worst that can happen? It doesn't pan out. Great. Let's move to the next thing. It's been an adventure and pharmacy is really one big adventure. You've just got to really go along for the ride.
speaker-2 (44:00.064)
Absolutely. I love that. Well, thank you, Deb. It's been a really great opportunity to speak with you today and learn more about what credential pharmacists do. Like even myself, I've learned some things today and I'm not a credential pharmacist, but I've always said, one day I will do that.
speaker-1 (44:19.307)
The day might be soon, especially if we get rid of these caps. Exactly.
speaker-2 (44:23.038)
Well, we'll be honest, it is something that's made me think twice about doing it. Cause it's like, well it's money to do these calls. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for sharing your journey to everyone listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share it with a colleague and let us know what you've thought. We'll have some things in the show notes of some of the organizations that you've chatted about Deb. If anyone else is interested and I'm sure.
speaker-1 (44:30.67)
Exactly, it's only fair.
speaker-2 (44:51.862)
If you're a consultant pharmacist, or even if you're interested, make sure you join that Facebook page. I'm a member of it and it's really, it really is a nice community.
speaker-1 (45:00.662)
You're very welcome. And thanks so much for having me on the show. I've enjoyed chatting about one of my favourite topics, consultant pharmacy.
speaker-2 (45:07.416)
me.
speaker-0 (45:08.162)
Thank you so for tuning in to Your Pharmacy Career podcast, proudly sponsored by the Pharmaceutical Society of Australia. The PSA is committed to empowering pharmacists through advocacy, innovation and industry leading professional development. To become a member or learn more about how the PSA can support your career, visit www.psa.org.au. Don't forget to subscribe, share this podcast with your colleagues and join us next time as we continue to explore your pharmacy career journey.
Final Thoughts
This episode is a reminder that pharmacy careers don’t have to follow a predictable script. Deb Hawthorne’s journey shows what can happen when a pharmacist keeps choosing connection over comfort, and service over status. Her story is also an honest window into the tension many pharmacists feel: loving the work, seeing the impact, yet constantly navigating whether the system makes that work sustainable — particularly for rural clinicians balancing travel, family, and finite capacity.
It’s also a timely prompt for pharmacists who are curious about consultant pharmacy, chronic disease support, or rural practice: these roles can be rich in meaning, but the profession will need ongoing structural reform to ensure they’re viable long-term. Advocacy, community building, and local leadership — themes Deb embodies — may be just as important as clinical skill in shaping what comes next.
At Raven’s Recruitment, these are the kinds of stories that matter, because they reflect a truth many pharmacists are discovering: fulfilling careers are often built by aligning skills with values and lifestyle — not just titles.
So, after hearing Deb’s path — the pivots, the “yes” moments, the rural opportunities, and the advocacy — what’s one step you could say yes to in your own pharmacy career this year?
