Podcast Transcript: Debbie Rigby - Advanced Practice Pharmacist | PSA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020 Recipient

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​​Welcome to Your Pharmacy Career Podcast, proudly brought to you by Raven's Recruitment, Australia's leading specialist pharmacy recruitment agency. The podcast series is being created to shine a light on the diverse and inspiring careers of Australia's pharmacists. Each episode will focus on the varied career opportunities within the pharmacy industry by exploring the career paths taken by leaders in the fields of Community Pharmacy, Hospital, Industry, Government and Professional Organizations. Careers never follow a defined path. Everyone's story is different and unique in their own way. The podcast series will help you discover the world of opportunities that exist and reveal pathways to achieve your dreams and aspirations. Whether you are a pharmacy student, early career pharmacist, or simply looking for a change at any stage of your career, the podcast series is designed to help you navigate ways into a career and a life that you love. Your host of the podcast series is Allie Xu. Allie, herself a pharmacist, is now the founder of Global Pharmacy Entrepreneurs and a passionate advocate for pharmacists to grow, innovate, excel, and make a lasting impact in the world. It's now over to our host, Allie Xu.

[Allie Xu] Hi, Debbie, how are you? 

[Debbie Rigby] Hi, Allie. Good, thanks. 

[Allie Xu] We're so excited to have you on the show and we can't wait to get to know your story and learn more about your pharmacy journey and get your advice for our pharmacy students and early career pharmacists.

[Debbie Rigby] Well, thank you for asking me, it's a privilege to be asked. And yeah, I’m looking forward to having a chat about it.

[Allie Xu] Thank you. And first of all, congratulations on receiving the PSA Lifetime Achievement Award, and being the first female to be recognized for this prestigious award.

[Debbie Rigby] Yeah, thank you. It's a huge thrill. But also to be the first female is just awesome.

[Allie Xu] So tell us about your story. Where did you grow up? And how did you decide to pursue a career in pharmacy?

[Debbie Rigby] Well, I've lived in Brisbane all my life. And it's been interesting getting this award, I've had to reflect on my career and what it means to me and what I've done sort of thing. Which I don't always do very often, but it has been an opportunity to think back. And people often do ask me why I did pharmacy and how I got into it. And I did think of doing maths at uni, because I love maths and I was sort of good at it. But I think the thing that really sort of influenced me was, I had to catch two buses or tram and a bus to high school and had to go into the city, Brisbane CBD. And the bus up to Girls Grammar was outside this amazing pharmacy, you know, the old school ones with the timber shelves and the real apothecary style one. And you'd stand there waiting for the bus. I'm not sure I realized it at the time but people would be coming in for their headache drafts and their hangover drafts and everything. And I just thought it was, you know, all these magical potions. And I've got, also, my family. My dad is a real chemist, I always joke. So he was an industrial chemist. So I've got three brothers, two of my brothers also went into not health, but chemistry related. One brother’s a chemical engineer and the other brother’s a food scientist. And so I think chemistry was in my blood in some ways. And my older brother had a chemistry set under the house and we’d, you know, make things and blow up things. And so yeah, I guess chemistry was one of the things that influenced me, but also the fact of caring for people. And way back even just watching the people go into that pharmacy, when I was in high school, I think influenced it.

[Allie Xu] Mmm. Wow. So what are some of the opportunities you had throughout your career and how did you get those opportunities?

[Debbie Rigby] Well, I think my career has almost been in two halves. The first half, 20 years or so of my career, I worked in community pharmacy and hospital pharmacy. And then the second half has really been so-called consultant pharmacy doing a huge range of different roles, being involved in medication reviews right from the start. And then also branching out into being involved with our pharmacy organization to being on the NPS medicine wise board, lots and lots of committees, government committees, ministerial appointments. And then probably in the last 10 years or so, of being involved with education. So I think uni with adjunct appointments, speaking at lots and lots of conferences — I'm a bit of a conference junkie — and forming my own company with Geraldine Moses, Pharm education. So we deliver seminars around the country and in New Zealand too. So I've had lots of opportunities. And I think one of the things I've been fortunate to do is to make the most of those opportunities. Not everybody does for various reasons — family, financial, etc. — but just making the most when opportunities do crop up.

[Allie Xu] Mmm. Yeah. Did you have any role models or mentors in your life, throughout your career? And what are some of the lessons you learned from these people who shaped your career development?

[Debbie Rigby] Yeah, I've had lots of role models and mentors. I get a thrill when people say I've been a mentor to them. But I think back — so I did my intern year or pre-reg year in a community pharmacy, and some of the people I met there, because it was a day and night pharmacy, and they had quite a number of pharmacists that would come into work at night. And I was required to work at least two nights a week, so sort of 12 hour days. And a couple of those people really shaped who I am as a pharmacist, my sort of ethos as a pharmacist. And probably the most influential person was Peter Brand. He'd been known to many people, or perhaps older people, and he was just a manager of a pharmacy then, but he established the first community pharmacy within a private Hospital in Brisbane at the Wesley Hospital. And Peter was just an amazing person, Unfortunately he passed away several years ago, but he influenced not only my attitude as a pharmacist, but also right– I remember working my last day of intern year with him. And those days you didn't have an exam, but you just went into the city and registered, paid some money and you were registered. So he told me to do that. And we were working together that night and went to the uni bar afterwards to celebrate. But Peter was very involved with PSA at that time. I think he was president of PSA Queensland, went on to be the national president. And many, many people would say that he's been a role model and mentor. He really influenced me a lot. And the other person there was Gary Lambrides. And both Gary and Peter, I think, to me had that right mix of understanding the business of owning a pharmacy and providing the business aspects both in community pharmacy and hospital pharmacy. But also, it was their professionalism really shown through, and I went on to work, when I left hospital pharmacy to have children, I worked every second Saturday morning for over 10 years for Gary in a wonderful little community pharmacy. And then, again, the influence has continued throughout my career. I think the other role models I've had are both friends and younger than me, and in particular, Geraldine Moses and Jeff Hughes and Lisa Nissen. And they to me are the sort of champions of pharmacy. Many many roles but also have influenced, supported me, enthused me and, you know, excited me about being a pharmacist. And just love working with them and going to conferences and, you know, feeding off them and having a few gins and wines and talking all things pharmacy.

[Allie Xu] Wow. Sounds fun. What are some qualities and skills pharmacy students and early career pharmacists can develop to prepare to become a successful consultant clinical pharmacist?

[Debbie Rigby] I think that our distinctive competency — what defines us as a pharmacist, as a health care practitioner — is our knowledge and knowledge about medicines. Some people say we're medicines experts. And to me that– right from the start, from the minute you leave uni, graduate, do your intern year and go on to work in the huge range of roles we can as a pharmacist these days — to me, it's the passion and the commitment to lifelong learning. Yes, you come out of uni, wonderful knowledge, you've had placements, as well as most likely working in pharmacies throughout that time, but that's just the start of your learning process. They say that medicines knowledge has a half life about two years, and there's always new stuff. Keeping up to date is challenging. But I think that's what we need to value, ourselves, so that other people will value it, including medical practitioners and the patients, of course. So that passion about lifelong learning, having the curiosity to ask questions. Never be afraid to ask the patient a question. They know more about their health and the affect of or the benefit and the harms of the medicines that they're taking. And similarly, having that curiosity and the courage to ask GPs as prescribers, you know, why they've chosen that drug or that dose sort of thing, rather than just being a passive provider of that medicines management. So yeah, I think learning, lifelong learning, valuing our knowledge ourselves, always developing new skills, new knowledge, applying that knowledge, and having the right attitude that nobody knows everything about everything, and to use your network of colleagues, as well as — as I said — learn from the patient.

[Allie Xu] Speaking of confidence in terms of– it felt that a lot of pharmacists, we don't have enough confidence to go to the doctor and voice our opinion or asking doctors, you know, to change medication. What are your thoughts on that? How can we build that confidence?

[Debbie Rigby] Yeah, I think confidence comes through experience. But also having that knowledge and having the confidence in your own knowledge and knowing what you know, and knowing what you don't know. So rather than– and it goes back to your communication skills, I think, in the political arena, GPs or the medical organizations throw around comments about pharmacists, and in particular, community pharmacists, about, you know, they only ring when there's a problem or they want to tell me I've written a script wrong. And I guess that's what's being involved with doing HMRs and RMRs has taught me. And I can remember back to the early days of doing nursing home reviews before RMR. So I started in 1994, when Peter Brand, a very innovative pharmacist asked me and Gary Lambrides to do some work and do education and writing newsletter for the aged care facilities or nursing homes then. And I can remember GPs getting so aggressive and pointing their finger at you and you know. But I guess I just turned things– I learnt to turn things into a question — “Can you help me understand?” or, “I'm not aware of, you know, this indication for the drug.” But say it in a– obviously not a sarcastic way or anything but. And I think inherently people want to teach other people and come from that — sharing your knowledge or experience. So I think it's just about how you start the conversation with the GPs, you start to develop a relationship based on trust and respect with the GPs and other prescribers. And phrase it in the terms of the patient. It's all about the patient. We're trying to do the best for our patients to prevent harm. Medicine safety. So I think it's how you phrase it. And have the courage. And I think also a thing that I do do — and I've always been sort of reflective after experiences that I think, “Oh, geez, what did I do wrong to get the GP to be so aggressive, or, you know, not really listen to what I was saying.” So reflect on the interaction. What I did well, what worked, you know, that sort of lightbulb moment when you felt they actually started listening to you. Or what you did poorly, I mean, how you responded. Whether it’s– if it is face to face, be aware of body language. That reflection after an episode, because then you can learn from your mistakes and learn from your successes as well.

[Allie Xu] Wow thank you. So how did you develop those skills at becoming the leader you are today?

[Debbie Rigby] Oh, tough question. I guess that desire to learn. I've also always had a strong desire to specialize. Even the first seven years after my pre-reg year in community pharmacy, I worked in a hospital pharmacy, and towards the last couple of years, I had the opportunity to specialize as an oncology pharmacist. So I was not that passionate about oncology, sort of scared me and depressed me a little bit. But to me, it was an opportunity to know a lot about a small, you know, particular topic. And since then, I've gone on to, I guess, specialize both in geriatrics, as well as respiratory at COPD and asthma management. So it does give me confidence to know a lot about specific things. And that's not for everybody. I mean, it's the old debate about generalist versus specialist. But for me — that in-depth knowledge; having that curiosity; talk to patients, GPs; go to a lot of events where GPs or specialists or even pharma are talking to specialize in. And that's helped me build my skills base and confidence in those particular areas, so. And I've said it a few times, but it goes back to that underpinning knowledge and confidence in your knowledge, but also that curiosity that you don't know everything and never will know everything about everything. To learn more. Again, making the most of opportunities, I was asked to be involved, really random, at a local PSA event, would I be interested in being on the PSA Queensland branch committee. And that really wasn't in my mindset to be involved very much with pharmacy organizations, but I thought, hey, why not? And that, I guess, started my pathway of being involved with pharmacy organizations. And similarly when I had the opportunity to apply to be a director of NPS MedicineWise, I've just finished 12 years on the NPS medicine wide board. And I guess that gave me a voice as well as being involved with PSA both on the branch committee then on the national board for a number of years. Went on to be involved and to be Chair of AACP, the Australian Association of Consultant Pharmacy, to be on many committees — TGA Advisory Committee, the Health Aged Care Ministers Advisory Committee, and many others. And I guess that those positions gave me the opportunity to have a voice. To be– say what pharmacy can do or is doing and what we should be doing. And I guess that might be seen as– by others, as being the leader of the profession. So yeah, it really goes back to the opportunities that present. Sometimes you have to put yourself up, and sometimes you're not successful. But to have a go. And it really helps to create that network of pharmacists, of friends, of colleagues, have role models that you can help, you know, surround yourself with amazing people. And it can lead to lots of opportunities.

[Allie Xu] Mmm. What are some of the challenges you experienced being on various different boards or during these leadership positions?

[Debbie Rigby] Mhmm. I won't shy away from saying I've had my challenges, I think, mostly as a female, and perhaps at the time as a younger female being involved in those circumstances. And you know, we all sometimes talk about the glass ceiling. I think the glass ceiling is correct, but certainly not– we haven't broken through it. I was very proud of being the first female vice president of PSA. I did run to be president of PSA twice. And I guess that was one of my life ambitions or career ambitions that I haven't achieved. And clearly, there was many reasons for that. But I just think perhaps some people weren't ready to have a female leader of our pharmacy organizations. And yeah, today, we still haven't had a female president or chair of Pharmacy Guild or Pharmaceutical Society. So I guess some of the other biases is that I have people say to me, “You're not a real pharmacist, you don't work in a community pharmacy,” I had once had a hospital pharmacist say to me I wasn't a real hospital pharmacist. I didn't know what that meant at the time. I still don't know what that means. But I really don't like putting an adjective in front of a pharmacist. I think we're pharmacists, and we work in different places, and different opportunities, different levels of care, whether you're an academic or, you know, these days, we do have career paths open to us that didn't exist when I graduated more than 40 years ago, so. And being that, sort of, sometimes outspoken, and going into innovative areas of practice does create some tension with other people. So I guess that has been some of my challenges. But as I've said, having that support group around you, that inspire you, support you, encourage you, as well as having your family. And my husband's always been very supportive of the sort of things and at times the quite emotional challenges I've been through. So yeah, I think you've– and it's the courage. I mean, if that's what you want to do, just I do read and listen these days to lots of podcasts by amazing people like Brené Brown that talk about the challenges that females face in the workplace and in leadership. So they give me some ideas and encouragement, really. You know, Sheryl Sandberg talks about women leaning in. It's not just enough to get on a committee, you've got to make your voice heard, and make a difference and say what you want to say, who you want to represent, what you want to– the principles you want to stand for, and not allow yourself to be bullied by, perhaps, more experienced people or people with other agendas.

[Allie Xu] Wow, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And we hear different views about learning and continued professional development in general. What's your advice about on-job training versus external training?

[Debbie Rigby] I do think the workplace should provide opportunities for continuing professional development, whether it's in-house, certainly in hospitals, you have the opportunity for journal clubs, Ipra drug drug groups education or grant rounds by your peers. And there is a, I guess it's perhaps one of the good things, the very few good things that’s come out of the pandemic, is the wealth of webinars, mostly free that are available. So I know my day is– or my week is quite taken up with– because I'm not seeing as many patients at the moment, although that started back a bit, but that education that's available. And not just confine yourself to education targeted just to pharmacists, there are a lot of medical and multidisciplinary webinars and education events that are available. I have gone, over the years, to events that are put on by pharma. They usually have real experts delivering the lectures and, you know, we should be able to sift through — if there is any these days, I don't believe there is but — any sort of company hype or bias towards the product. And I also do think that employers should, in some ways, fund people. It's investing in their staff, investing in the value that their staff, the pharmacists can bring to their business. So and again, that happens a lot. Some of the bigger banner groups have their own master classes on job training. And I think that's evolved to be very valuable part of the banner groups or professional groups for community pharmacies. Yeah, so it is, and I still hear people say, “Oh, I've got my points for the year, my CPD points for the year. I don't need to do anything.” I really cringe when I see that, and at times, I'll challenge those people. You know, how can you do your best job if you don't know what you're talking about? And keeping up to date, there's just so many new drugs around new guidelines. It is challenging to keep up to date. In my role, which — I've got about 27 different jobs — I literally would spend an hour or two a day, most days, reading stuff, having the Table of Contents e-talks for various top line journals or respiratory journals that I read a lot. I think social media is a wonderful education tool if you set it up properly. So I do get a lot of things on Twitter, Facebook, the Facebook groups, as well as LinkedIn. So there's no excuse for access to a CPD. It's just the time and really valuing it, I think, and fitting it into your life because you certainly do need to have that work-life balance too.

[Allie Xu] Mmm. Just out of curiosity, how do you fit all the 27 jobs in?

[Debbie Rigby] At times, it gets on top of me. I'm not gonna pretend I'm a wonderful time management person. I am learning to say, “No,” a little bit more and really just focus on the things that I want to do that excite me. I'm fortunate to be provided with lots of opportunities, whether it's to speak at events or write for various journals, as well as the committee's, etc. But, you know, I work — although it's really declined since COVID-19 — in a GP practice. I'm still doing two or three HMRs per week. Yeah so you fit it in, if you, well– if you love it — and I do love being a pharmacist — you can find ways of fitting it in. But yeah, got children, grandchildren, I love, you know, doing the things that you love doing as well as doing exercise. Going to the gym is really important, too.

[Allie Xu] Mmm. So you mentioned still doing HMRs in the GP clinic as well. So what are some of the opportunities for growth for pharmacists in HMR, MMR, community pharmacy, as well as GP clinic?

[Debbie Rigby] Well, HMRs and RMRs have been around for more than 20 years now, which is pretty amazing. And I really do think it's undervalued by the profession. Politics gets in the way, but to the credit of the community pharmacy agreement, way back in the second agreement, 1997 RMRs started, 2001, HMRs. And they've continued through successive agreements, I think we still do need some changes to the program rules to be able to efficiently and effectively deliver them. And that's planned for next year. So it has created this different career paths for pharmacists to work either full time doing it or part time fitting it in on top of working in community pharmacy or hospital pharmacy. And then in recent years, pharmacists working in GP practices, more recently in aged care facilities. And I'm really, really hopeful that the final recommendations, and what the government does with those recommendations from the Royal Commission into aged care, have already signaled that they think there should be a pharmacist in every aged care facility. So embedding pharmacists in GP practice in aged care facilities and in Aboriginal Health Services, as well. And there's a number of pharmacists that have that role. It is a wonderful opportunity. I love it. It's a multidisciplinary environment, you usually have full access to the patient's notes. So you're not– I think that's one of the challenges with HMRs in particular, that you don't necessarily have the full information, clinical information, and the psychosocial information around the patient to provide the best recommendations that we can around their medicines management. So yeah, I think it's, you know, there's a lot of momentum, a lot of interest. There's some funding. Clearly funding is a critical aspect. But we've had the pioneers like Chris Freeman, the current PSA president, who've gone into that area. Other amazing pharmacists like Chris Braithwaite, who works in the Aboriginal Health Service in northern New South Wales, he was working up in North Queensland as well. So we've had those people that have defined the model and shown what it can be. We're still evolving the model and getting evidence for it. But yeah, it's not for everybody. And it doesn't diminish the other roles that pharmacists can play. I don't believe it's better, it's just different.

[Allie Xu] Mmm, great. So what would you do differently if you can restart your pharmacy career?

[Debbie Rigby] I don't think I'd do anything radically different. I did say no to somebody a long time ago, who came up from Sydney and asked me to hit up a division within a — at that time — quite small organization. They wanted me to move to Sydney and I had children at school and I clearly wasn't going to do that. But they went on to be one of the most successful and innovative pharmacy businesses in Australia, or, in fact, worldwide. So maybe I regret that, but it was the wrong time in my life to make those sort of radical changes. So one thing I'd like to change, I guess, I– that glass ceiling, perhaps, you know, if I reflect. And I don't dwell on my failures too much. I know I do at times, especially over a few battles. But the opportunities for females– and it's coming, there's more and more females in ownership, on, you know, organizational committees, etc. So that will only continue to evolve and change. So it's– wonderful opportunities. I really think all females or any pharmacists should aspire to those opportunities if that's what excites you, if that's what interests you.

[Allie Xu] Mmm. So just one question about the glass ceiling. What do you reckon the glass ceiling is really? Why was it there? What's the glass ceiling?

[Debbie Rigby] Well, in general, you know, I mean, even in my lifetime women haven't had the vote. So it is a societal thing, that women have a different place in society, not necessarily seen as leaders or business type people. That’s certainly changed now. And within the pharmacy profession, I mean, going way back, it was very much a male-dominated profession. Pharmacy ownership is still male-dominated. But it's over 60% of graduates now are females. So the demographics of being a pharmacist has changed. And reality is, females are different. We do quite often have — not always, but quite often have breaks in our careers to have children and take on raising children. I didn't work for quite a number of years when my kids were small. And then I only went back very much part-time, like a couple of mornings a week while they were at school. So I was fortunate to be in that position. Even when interest rates on home loans were 18% compared today. So it is different, we are different. And we should rejoice in that difference. But we shouldn't be denied opportunities simply because we're female. And even the first unit at home that I bought, I couldn't, even though I had a full time job as a pharmacist — that was my second year out — I couldn't get a home loan as a female. And yeah, it's 40-something years ago, but I had to either get my parents as guarantors or find a male to... anyway.

[Allie Xu] Wow, we’ve come a long way.

[Debbie Rigby] So, things have changed fo– yeah, yeah. And you know, I've got pharmacist friends that went to get a business loan to buy a pharmacy 40-50 years ago, and they couldn't get it. So absolutely, things have changed for the better. But I do still think there's that — whether it's real or something, in fact, we impose on ourselves — I absolutely hate the saying that you can do it all. You can't, but it’s a balance. A balance of work, those opportunities. As I said, I didn't do what I do until my kids were in high school or at uni when I could feel it was appropriate to go away, interstate for meetings, etc. And everyone's different. That just sort of worked and evolved throughout my life and my career.

[Allie Xu] Mmm. So what's your advice on topic of breaking the glass ceiling? What's your advice for female pharmacist or pharmacy students, early career pharmacists, for them, you know, for their future career, breaking that glass ceiling? What's your advice for them?

[Debbie Rigby] I think you've got to start with yourself, your own attitudes and beliefs. There is no boundaries. Don't put those boundaries there for yourself. You can do anything. Seriously. I think the other thing that I've talked about throughout this podcast is surrounding yourself with amazing people, having mentors, your role models, people that will inspire and support you. I get — especially after conferences — I get people asking me and keeping contact. I think that's one of the beauties of social media, that you can have those contacts and make the contacts. And I get people just sending me a message or something on Twitter, a message on Twitter asking me, “Can we have a chat?” or I’ve formally mentored people. And, you know, I think that's very valuable, and it’s certainly helped me throughout my career. And, to me, that's one of the wonderful things about the pharmacy profession here in Australia and in some other countries — and the world is very small these days with social media — to create those networks. There's lots of groups, specific groups on social media that you can be part of. I've been very fortunate to have been asked to be on overseas committees to travel overseas for training, and speak at conferences, etc. And again, you build those networks of people, and they really inspire and support me.

[Allie Xu] Mmm, mhmm. Thank you. If you were counseling a student on how to choose internship positions, what advice would you give to them?

[Debbie Rigby] I really do think pharmacists decide to do a pharmacy degree for different reasons. And they’re different, not better. I think some people are very attracted to owning a small business and they, perhaps right from the start, I think that they want to either work in or manage or own a community pharmacy. Other pharmacists are attracted towards hospital pharmacy, perhaps through their placements at uni. And then now we've got lots of other opportunities and career paths. So I think the way the uni degree courses are structured these days, you do have placements throughout your undergrad or the master's courses, to make the most of those placements, to see what's different, you know. And I went into community pharmacy when I graduated, I loved it. But then I was asked, “You want to have a go work in a hospital pharmacy?” And I thought, you know, I’d try that and see that rather than being stuck in the one place. So trying and trying to have career workplace experience in different places. Again, I don't think one place is better than the other if it’s what resonates with you, it's what you enjoy. It's what you think might be your future role as a pharmacist, clearly, I think currently 70% of pharmacists work in community pharmacy, and even within the five thousand or five and a half thousand community pharmacies, clearly there's different types of community pharmacies. And so perhaps, depending what you like, and what you see your role as a pharmacist, you might choose different types of pharmacies. I know we don't always necessarily get a choice. But I also do think, not that I did it, but going into rural areas really gives you a different insight. Especially when you're younger, it's probably easier to go to a rural area for a couple years or a year. So it's just different horses for courses really.

[Allie Xu] And last question, what's your advice for our aspiring and early career pharmacists, both professionally and personally?

[Debbie Rigby] Again, a hard question. If I had to say one thing — but that I'll say two, is that, value your own knowledge. The ethos of lifelong learning is — makes you a better pharmacist and provides better professional satisfaction. So you actually enjoy what you're doing. And we are at work for a big part of our lives, a big part of our days. So we need to enjoy it and get that professional and personal satisfaction around it. So right from the start, you know, saying, “I want to learn stuff every day.” When I'm– actually the uni lecturer who got my job or recommended me for the job my intern year, he said to me when we finished that I should read a page of Martin Dale every day of my career as a pharmacist. I haven't read a page of Martin Dale every day, but I'll probably have read something about pharmacy about medicines journals. Certainly these days, it might be on social media, or the sort of electronic resources like Medscape that I look at every morning. So just that little bit of learning every day helps, you know, exponentially grow your knowledge. I will indulge in saying the second thing and I think that is– mentioned it many times is get yourself a mentor. Surround yourself with amazing pharmacists. Don't be scared to go up to somebody at a conference and say hello, and contact them on social media or whatever. Because I know people get a thrill out of helping and supporting other pharmacists, whether they're starting out in their career changing direction in their career, or whatever. And you know, I think we often joke about our “pharmily,” our pharmacy family. I certainly have some of my– well, my closest friends are pharmacists, or many of them are pharmacists. And I work with them and I play with them. So that's important to me, but– and it is trying to find — I know we all don't at times — find that balance between your personal and professional lives. So yeah, that– I guess, lifelong learning and mentorship or your family is what I’d advise people to value and to grow.

[Allie Xu] Mmm. Wow, thank you so much, Debbie, for amazing insights. Thank you.

[Debbie Rigby] You're welcome. Thank you for asking me it was sort of fun talking about myself. But yeah, hopefully, as I said, if anybody's listening to this, contact me on social media. I am genuinely happy to help people.

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